Author Topic: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning  (Read 7498 times)

Offline omahasubaru

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2012, 02:28:26 PM »
If we are gonna turn this into a battle thread I'm game because that seems to be the direction it's going.

If that happens, you all are going to get a time out.  seriously. Grow up guys.

And Kevin (since we're being open here). I expect MORE from you since you are a moderator of this forum. Don't make me regret that decision.

Offline kevinmfb

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2012, 02:48:46 PM »
Gotcha. In other words I jumped into the middle of the discussion which I shouldn't have especially since I have no dog in this fight.
I'll just sit back and watch now :)

A boost control of any kind will help a lot with getting boost under control.
I have one waiting to go in, my boost looked like a lolercoaster when working with previous tuners. Overshooting target, bleeding it to get under control, then build up and overshoot again.
It finally got under control by Mark, who is awesome by the way.
He was the first and only one that said "look, your car loves boost, loves to build it quick and she seems to like it right around 17.4 so let's stop fighting it and start with that in mind".


I'm down for discussing away but when people say that there is some sort of exclusive club and what not it leads me to believe there's gonna be a battle.
Just want discussion to be discussion and keep things absolute like mathematics.


There's no opinion in math....


If we are gonna turn this into a battle thread I'm game because that seems to be the direction it's going.

If that happens, you all are going to get a time out.  seriously. Grow up guys.

And Kevin (since we're being open here). I expect MORE from you since you are a moderator of this forum. Don't make me regret that decision.


This was actually me biting my tongue too.  I guess I got caught up in the heat of the moment with all the recent anger.  I'm calm now...I took my medicine (had a beer). ;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 02:51:30 PM by kevinmfb »

Offline Aki

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2012, 02:59:11 PM »
As an outsider to tuning, and from an outside perspective, the exclusive club comment is very accurate.  That doesn't need to be taken as an inflammatory statement.  It's just how it is.  Confirmed by a member of the JazTuning group, they are a quiet bunch.  That is just fine, one way or the other.  It's also just fine if they're exclusive, too, there are no binding contracts that say they must agree to advertise or even entertain the idea of tuning someone.  Their group is their group.

If anything at all leads to you believe there is going to be a battle, then the appropriate response would be to calmly remind people that this is no place for a battle, ever.  This is a place in which objective and level headed technical discussions can take place.

Offline omahasubaru

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2012, 03:15:28 PM »
I'm down for discussing away but when people say that there is some sort of exclusive club and what not it leads me to believe there's gonna be a battle.

In all honesty, it sounds like a private club. like some exclusive tuner that only few have access to. You have to understand, until this week, no one on here even know of a local tuner who tuned cars for people other than Explicit. So we're all caught off guard and wondering why we're in the dark... so I'm not surprised someone has asked if it is private club.

I think you are in the loop, so you're reading into masterforces comments way more than you should. I didn't read them as snide or confrontational at all. If anything he was trying to portray a little humor about a private club w/a secret handshake or something.

EVERYONE needs to use more tact in their posts. read replies more than once and make sure your own emotional stake in the discussion doesn't cause you to read into things or post in haste.

This is a place in which objective and level headed technical discussions can take place.

I'd pay $$ to see more of this frankly.

Offline Aki

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2012, 03:20:25 PM »
This is a place in which objective and level headed technical discussions can take place.
I'd pay $$ to see more of this frankly.

Can is the operative word here ;)
Whether or not they do take place is up to all of us, as per your other comments.

Offline julozas

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2012, 04:39:17 PM »
This makes me sad that people cannot control themselves over the Internet. It was stated
That it isn't a club, they just have families and don't want to tune cars whenever they get an opportunity to do so. That's fair, I wouldn't want to either.
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Offline scby_snk

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2012, 08:38:49 AM »
...That it isn't a club, they just have families and don't want to tune cars whenever they get an opportunity to do so. That's fair, I wouldn't want to either.

We try tune as many as possible, at every chance we can we help people that come to us. (We will not come knocking on your door) There is only 2 cases where we had talked to someone because of the current state their car had ran at and they were not happy and very frustrated. This was brought up in conversation and they asked for our help. They were close friends, and we couldn't take seeing them this way.

I would say that we are not a "club" per say; but due to personal commitments we do not have an interest in turning out quantity over quality. Each car is treated as if it is our own, and if we wouldn't feel comfortable with it as our own; it isn't done.

But if you would like to think of jaz Tuning as an "exclusive club" I suppose that is ok. But don't think for one second that because we don't push to tune cars that we wouldn't help you or anyone out. Like I had stated prior at one point. We have been pretty busy lately and have put customers to the front of our own cars and even dipped in to our personal parts piles to get them going. ;) (No we do not sell parts lol)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 09:44:49 AM by SuaveCougarBait »
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Offline scby_snk

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2012, 09:00:09 AM »
I guess think of it as a "fine dining"...we serve them all but we only take reservations I guess...

We have a short waiting list if that makes sense.  :popcorn :discomonkey :subaru:
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Offline 99STM

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2012, 11:09:52 PM »
I thought everyone knew Jason tuned cars.


I don't have any personal experience with Jason but he is a very intelligent guy when it cames to tuning. I have STi Mikey from NASIOC do all my tuning, otherwise he would probably be doing it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 11:12:51 PM by 99STM »
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Offline kevinmfb

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2013, 07:43:55 AM »
It's happening again... Folks realizing their cars haven't been running very well.
Posted just a few days ago on FB.



Offline Reverend

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2013, 10:29:36 AM »
I saw that post, but didn't know about the history that came along with this, so thanks for posting it on here.  Makes things a little more relevant on a topic I would've otherwise missed.


Offline fishbone

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2013, 08:42:48 PM »
I was going to write a wall of text, but then I remembered people have short attention spans and inflamatory posts usually get more attention. So, to that end, since this thread was bumped again, I will say this.

If anyone is interested in helping out the community at all, and not just looking to grind axes, how about some factual, coherent data?
What does it even mean for a car to not run well? Overly conservative tune? Well, I suspect that can't be, because that does not meet the definition of not running well as far as I can tell. Still, some people that want balls to the wall power may interpret it that way so some specific data is needed.
Overboosting? Pulling timing? What?
How about a log or learning view of before vs after? Some data on the cars? Identical in every way mechanically?

"Never knew how bad my Tank Tune reall was" only tells me one thing. Said driver never datalogged.
There is no such thing as a ticking timebomb, only a driver that can't be bothered to really look at what the car is doing and is continuing to drive it carelessly.
I don't care if you were tuned by god himself, you always, ALWAYS datalog. Any issues identified ought to be stamped out easily. If you get to a point where after numerous revisions you're still not getting anywhere then yes, I get it, maybe it's time to get a second opinion. That is what I did with a nationally known tuner which I haven't had a lot of luck with. I gave up. But in the end, I recognize that I essentially turned away from a reputable tuner that was trying to work out the issues my car was having with the tune.
PDX Tuning was yet another tuner I had worked with that I have not had luck with.
I have gone through 4 tuners.
Then one day our very own Mark aka Qikslvr took a look at my tune, tweaked a couple things, car ran the best it had in 2 years.

I'm not specifically looking to defend anyone. Just pointing out that some meat behind these "my car ran like crap" testimonials would help immensely because after all, it's a learning process.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 08:46:32 PM by fishbone »

Offline bspec

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2013, 08:45:49 PM »
How about setting the knock response to add timing instead of remove? The simple mistake of missing a minus sign can kill a motor.
the bottom line is this, people just need to realize that when they buy cheap CO's [KW on down], they are buying cheap, poorly engineered shocks for the sake of having height adjust-ability. - whitetiger on legacygt.com

Offline fishbone

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2013, 08:47:41 PM »
That sounds like sloppy work. See, these kinds of specifics is what I was trying to get at :)

Offline bspec

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2013, 08:52:46 PM »
That's how my car ran for two years. I was lucky. I couldn't figure out why my car had positive learned knock when IAM was at 1. I even asked tank about it several times and he couldn't figure it out. I finally posted the question to the rom raider forum and had my answer same day.
the bottom line is this, people just need to realize that when they buy cheap CO's [KW on down], they are buying cheap, poorly engineered shocks for the sake of having height adjust-ability. - whitetiger on legacygt.com

Offline C.J.

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2013, 09:03:55 PM »
Always datalog?  I don't datalog my car anymore.  The tune is done, car runs well, no need to datalog everywhere I go.

Offline kevinmfb

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2013, 07:42:23 AM »
I've explained in detail about my car running like ****.
It seems to me people still want to defend this guy. It's mind boggling to me.
If I could've posted how ridiculous my PM Box was after I posted the original review folks would have been in shock.


Bottom line. Tank's tunes were not tunes and another guy is finding out that his car was in fact a ticking time bomb.
To say that a car can't be is pretty stupid. Yes, stupid.


My car was running so rich and overboosting where I couldn't pass in 4th gear. Tell me that my car wasn't gonna go "boom".


You seem to have a ton of knowledge, fishbone, so why don't you start a tuning thread that shares what you know?
Maybe Qiksilver can chime in on certain topics of discussion.


Seems when a topic on any sort of higher level other than a new model or cruise comes up people turtle head it. They need to know if they are indeed wanting to gain performance of any sort.

Offline fishbone

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2013, 09:50:13 AM »
CJ, once the tune is done then yes, there really isn't a need to catalog all the time. Still doesn't hurt to recheck it once and again. What I was referring to is always datalog while getting the tune dialed in.

Kevin, you've misunderstood the intent of my post.
To the matter of being or not being a ticking time bomb, to call it as such means there is an issue bad enough to put the engine in danger and two things are at play: the driver doesn't care or is not doing anything about it. The so called "ticking timebomb" is, as far as I am concerned, ultimately both the car owner's doing (don't run a car with a bad tune) and responsibility.
Go into tuning with the expectation that its a risky endeavor and do your best to find the best guy for the job. If you think Tom isn't the man, that is fine, but whatever you do don't drive a car with a bad tune.

PDX was struggling with over boosting.
After a few runs, Mark simply said "look, your car loves to build boost fast so let's find out where she likes to be at". We figured that setting a target higher than 17.5PSI was useless because the car seems to like to get to around 17.2-17.4 so anything higher it would over boost trying to get to that target.
I thought Marks approach was brilliant.
This is from memory. I think my actual target is 17.8 or something. I haven't visited my tune in a long time because it is running spotless.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 09:53:14 AM by fishbone »

Offline joeleodee

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2013, 01:43:18 PM »
Kevin, I don't see fishbone's post as a defense of Tank, but rather a request for clarification of the specific issues that come with a Tank tune.  I have been mainly silent about my issues with Tank when he was working on tuning my vehicle, but I will chime in here.

I suppose my major issue with Tank was time.  If you want to check my setup, check the "Member's Journal's" thread and you'll see that to tune my vehicle is really no simple process.  Shortly after taking on my vehicle as a project, he got a full-time position that required a lot of overtime meaning that to work on all the cars he had lined up to tune were getting pushed back including mine.  It seemed that at about that time, people having issues with his tunes started popping up.  I think the 2 are related.  Someone mentioned earlier that if you can't devote the time to spend on such a side business, then he shouldn't be offering the service in the first place.  I agree.  That is the ultimate reason I never got my car fully tuned from him as he and I both agreed that he didn't have time.  In the meantime, I was learning about tuning the vehicle myself and I got to the point that I was comfortable enough to take my vehicle on as my own project. 

That having been said, I never had a problem personally with the guy so I cannot comment on that.  My vehicle was getting up there in miles and we kept running into issues like boost leaks, o2 sensors, batteries, bovs, boost controllers just to name a few.  Once these were all buttoned up after several months of driving with very moderate output, it was close to time to start adding power.  Then, my car kept throwing a rich code.  I noticed it only ran rich at idle and Tank couldn't figure it out.  Turned out that I discovered through hours of research and tweaking of my own that injector latencies were incorrect.  It was at this point that I decided I was competent enough to tune my vehicle on my own and I notified Tank and he agreed.  (When I say 'on my own', I really mean with assistance of online research, personal assistance from Jaz's advice and Qikslvr helping build maps or referencing maps from my known proper running stage 2 tune.)  Shortly after that, Tank moved out of town for other career opportunities. 

Looking back at some of my datalogs I can see that my vehicle was in fact running poorly, but this was all on unfinished tunes.  I noticed that some WOT runs that were knocking at high RPM were hitting very lean AFRs which admittedly is a recipe for a ticking time bomb.  Of course, at the time of those datalogs, I was actually testing a mbc against my ebcs which was suspected of being the culprit behind not being able to boost past spring pressure.  So going from 15 psi to 18 psi is not recommended without tweaking the other necessary parameters.  If I hadn't been datalogging as fishbone recommends, yes, my engine probably would have blown.  This was all during the tuning process.

All that to say this;  I am satisfied that I am now tuning my own vehicle and knowing the way I am, it will be an ongoing process.  My real issue with working with Tank as I said earlier is that he didn't have the time to actually devote to my vehicle.  Perhaps that makes me lucky?     I haven't gotten very far in the few months on the tune myself but it is running very clean and safe.  Strange winter/spring combined with work/life issues taking a lot of free time away from my projects has kept me from seeing the true potential of my setup.  Anyone that has a Tank tune and is uncomfortable with it because of what has been said here and on facebook should get their vehicle datalogged and if unsatisfactory, there are many other etuning options available.  If we need to, perhaps we can start a "check my datalog" thread here on this forum and some of us can look at them and decipher whether or not you are driving a "ticking time bomb," or there is something mechanically wrong.  On a limited basis, I could probably even help some folks do some datalogs.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 01:46:26 PM by joeleodee »

Offline fishbone

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2013, 02:10:18 PM »
Heh, I've had an ebcs and a 15PSI actuator for 2 years now sitting on my shelf.
Family first I guess :)

Offline jaz

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2013, 03:16:58 PM »
It seemed that at about that time, people having issues with his tunes started popping up.  I think the 2 are related.

I generally try to stay out of this crap, but...  He used to stop by my house regularly during his tunes on other peoples cars to ask for advice with issues.  Judging by the cars that I later fixed, that had the same issues from a year or more, it was just coincidence that everything popped up when it did.  I'd say MOST of the issues I found with said cars had absolutely nothing to do with lack of time.  Some of the issues would baffle me, but not because I didn't know what was going on, but because he couldn't figure the most basic stuff out.  Injectors was one of his major issues; He didn't know what he was doing, PERIOD.  His "safe" tunes were rich tunes to mask issues.  Some of them so rich that they were no longer safe.  Aside from the basic stage 1/2 cars that he flashed (probably from the Internet), that were previously healthy, all the cars exhibited pretty much the same issues: Running rich/very rich, black sooty bumper and looking like a diesel at WOT, after-firing (even on a stock BPV!!!), and a few other common things I can't recall currently.  There were many times I wanted to throw the BS flag during our conversations/discussions on this board alone.  One specifically is where I mentioned something about MAF scaling and he came back with a response saying he always scaled the MAF.  At that point, I had more than a few of his maps from some of his previous cars and most of them had a completely stock MAF curve.  Some of you may have seen the AFR map I pulled from Kevin's car over a year ago.  When posted on FB, without calling out names, Tom was the first to unknowingly bash on his own map.

Someone mentioned earlier that if you can't devote the time to spend on such a side business, then he shouldn't be offering the service in the first place.  I agree.  That is the ultimate reason I never got my car fully tuned from him as he and I both agreed that he didn't have time.  In the meantime, I was learning about tuning the vehicle myself and I got to the point that I was comfortable enough to take my vehicle on as my own project. 

That having been said, I never had a problem personally with the guy so I cannot comment on that.  My vehicle was getting up there in miles and we kept running into issues like boost leaks, o2 sensors, batteries, bovs, boost controllers just to name a few.  Once these were all buttoned up after several months of driving with very moderate output, it was close to time to start adding power.  Then, my car kept throwing a rich code.  I noticed it only ran rich at idle and Tank couldn't figure it out.  Turned out that I discovered through hours of research and tweaking of my own that injector latencies were incorrect.  It was at this point that I decided I was competent enough to tune my vehicle on my own and I notified Tank and he agreed.  (When I say 'on my own', I really mean with assistance of online research, personal assistance from Jaz's advice and Qikslvr helping build maps or referencing maps from my known proper running stage 2 tune.)  Shortly after that, Tank moved out of town for other career opportunities. 

Looking back at some of my datalogs I can see that my vehicle was in fact running poorly, but this was all on unfinished tunes.  I noticed that some WOT runs that were knocking at high RPM were hitting very lean AFRs which admittedly is a recipe for a ticking time bomb.  Of course, at the time of those datalogs, I was actually testing a mbc against my ebcs which was suspected of being the culprit behind not being able to boost past spring pressure.  So going from 15 psi to 18 psi is not recommended without tweaking the other necessary parameters.  If I hadn't been datalogging as fishbone recommends, yes, my engine probably would have blown.  This was all during the tuning process.

I've got a couple unfinished tunes out there due to chasing down issues on the individual cars, for not having items I need, like a WBO2 (hence why I now have a checklist), and then delayed due to winter.  None of those cars run poorly.  They've all been left in a safe running manner with specific instructions.  They're not knocking, they're not getting terrible fuel mileage, they're not chugging along with issues.  With as many cars as he's blasted through, not only should he have lots of good base maps, but he should have lowered timing over 100% load and ramped it up through the process.  I know for a fact that many of his tunes went as far as loading a map and making three pulls.  What's worse, is that Subaru wasn't his only game in town.  Last year, while filling up with E85, some guys in a red Evo recognized me and said they were at my house.  It was the red Evo that Tom drove up into my driveway (tuning from the drivers seat, which was common for most cars he brought over) with the owner in the passenger seat.  During our conversation at the gas station, he said that was when Tom was trying to convert him to E85 and they finally gave up and went to MKC.  Even Chase's car overboosted and ran like crap before his stock motor let go.

At the end of last year, in one week I was presented with four cars that were ALL previous blown up engines from Tom.  One car in specific had gone back and forth to the shop insisting that the tune was not at fault.  A lot of unnecessary additional work went into the vehicle to ensure the car was ready for tuning costing the shop a good chunk of time and money.  I don't recall how many months this took place over, but when I got the car, I found the injectors scaled incorrectly, by over 100cc RICH.  The car was tuned that day building a map from scratch and as far as I know, it's running fine.

There's nothing wrong with occasionally data logging, but it should be a "nice to be able to do" deal vs "must do" for fear of blowing up your car.  This really is just the tip of the iceberg.  There's plenty more and I'm saying that based on what I have personally witnessed or soaked up for the aftermath.  I still don't know if he was just trying to make a quick buck, or boost his reputation in the car scene, but him leaving did far more good than anything.  After I started to figure him out, I stopped providing help (bet you guys didn't see any credit given my way... Although that was probably a good thing) and the rest just fell into place.  The only reason I really started doing any tuning is because I wanted the community to realize what was going on.  Prior to all this crap, I used to do this stuff for free just because I like playing with cars.



As far as PDX and the overboosting issues.  Setting target really does nothing but tell the ECU whether or not it is hitting correct boost.  From an outside standpoint, seeing how many reputable tuners you went through, I'd be willing to bet the issue was mechanical (guessing a leak somewhere) and possibly "band-aided" by just changing target boost to match what you were actually getting.  Take it FWIW.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 03:19:42 PM by jaz »

Offline joeleodee

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2013, 04:10:47 PM »
Jaz, understand that I've heard a lot about these issues and I'm merely commenting on my own experiences and I stand beside my last point that perhaps some of these people need their vehicles datalogged, ROMs looked at, learning views  pulled or what have you.  I also understand that you're doing the same in providing your own personal insight and experience with these issues and I appreciate that.   To tell the truth, I can't comment on what the motivation was to put out what has shown to be subpar and even dangerous tunes, but moving forward from here is probably what best serves the community.   I'm sure there's more on both sides of this discussion that may never come to light through these boards and I have moved on.  No offense to you or any other tuner, but I'm perfectly happy tackling this project on my own.  I still appreciate your advice though so thank you.  ;)

Offline jaz

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2013, 04:27:48 PM »
Nothing was directed specifically at you, but it triggered me to tag off of it.  I've kept fairly quiet about the situation for the most part, but facts were requested and I think that the public needs to be aware.  TBH, people not knowing enough or doing enough research is what he thrived on. 

I encourage people to do this stuff on their own if they truly want to learn.  I hope for your success, but don't tire yourself out into a never-ending tune for the time you own the vehicle.  :)

For the most part, we've moved on, but I needed to get some of it off my chest.

Offline csmiller18

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2013, 06:27:58 PM »
I encourage people to do this stuff on their own if they truly want to learn.

The biggest thing I have learned from this whole ordeal is that I need to just learn to datalog for myself and research to learn how healthy my car is running. However, as I have said before, its more difficult than it seems when you don't have friends that are interested in this hobby. Even dataloging will be a learning experience.
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Offline Kenny McKee

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Re: Explicit Motorsports/Tank Tuning
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2013, 10:39:34 PM »
I encourage people to do this stuff on their own if they truly want to learn.

The biggest thing I have learned from this whole ordeal is that I need to just learn to datalog for myself and research to learn how healthy my car is running. However, as I have said before, its more difficult than it seems when you don't have friends that are interested in this hobby. Even dataloging will be a learning experience.

where do you live? There's plenty of new friends you can meet here on the forum.