Author Topic: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?  (Read 3921 times)

Offline watercrawl

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Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« on: May 16, 2012, 09:10:05 AM »
I have a bone stock....well, mechanically anyway, 2011 WRX sedan.

I don't get into high revs very often, but I will ocassionally.  When I do, in 1st and 2nd gear, I feel a loss of power between about 5k and 5.5k in the RPM range.  Not a complete loss of power, but the car very obviously doesn't pull as hard in that rev area.

Why?

With all the talk of tunes going bad, a new baby in the house, and a wife who's income we lost due to her desire to stay at home with the baby....I'm going to stay stock because we simply cannot afford any repair bills at this time.  So, please, telling me a tune will fix it is pointless really.  I'm more just after a why and if it might be a problem or just the factory tune or what?!?!

Offline LBP WRX

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 09:51:38 AM »
Honestly with car being new staying no tune is probably best seeing as your still under warranty. On a side note I have no clue as to your cause, hopefully someone else has better insight than me
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Offline MasterForce

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 09:55:02 AM »
Havent heard anything with WRXs only STIs...

There have been many threads on forums, especially NASIOC, where the factory tune is very bad because it is lean at those RPMs so it can do good on emissions testing. Supposedly this will eventually lead to the infamous ringland failure. Many have reported that going with just a simple stage 1 tune will make it run more smoother and get rid of that leaness.

Check out the stock STIs powercurve at those RPMs you talked about. I am sure they are the same like WRXs. (Couldnt find a stock WRX graph)



-'11 SWP STi Sedan *COBB SF Intake + Box *Invidia Catless DP *Invidia Dual Ti Q300
*SLOWtuned @ 213 AWHP - 93 FT-LB @ 20 PSI

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Offline LBP WRX

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 10:25:02 AM »
I didn't realize the stock curves looked like that...  why can't auto manufactures just manner Smith safe cars?
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Offline watercrawl

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 10:37:47 AM »
Okay, so for poops and giggles, I called a local Subaru dealership service department and explained this situation. 

First, I'll never take my car there for repairs as the guy was rather rude....but:

He said this is caused by the ECM delaying power because the transmission torque converter (errr, wait....WTF did he say?)......

Now I'm damn sure never taking my car there. 

Offline kevinmfb

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 10:38:30 AM »
Government regulations.
They have to meet certain emission requirements for one. The list goes on and on.
Plus it's easier to cookie cut vehicles out the door than make each car tuned to the engine's build.


One map for all STi's :(
One map for all WRXes that leave the factory too :(


If you want that then you'll be visiting the AMG factory where Mercedes literally has one person build your motor, test it and tune it.
You get a one-off engine for a hefty price.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:49:31 PM by kevinmfb »

Offline scby_snk

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 11:54:03 AM »
Government regulations.
They have to meet certain emission requirements for one. The list goes on and on.
Plus it's easier to cookie cut vehicles out the door than make each car tuned to the engine's build.


so much truth to this!
WRX Limited on e85 and a loud transmission


jaz Tuning

Offline 99STM

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 03:48:17 PM »

Plus it's easier to cookie cut vehicles out the door than make each car tuned to the engine's build.


Bingo, which is exactly why I will never understand why people will continue to run OTS maps from the Cobb AP.


OP, are you running 91 in the car? Is the problem ONLY in 1st and 2nd gear? Being the tune would not make sense to me. It's a possiblity, but there is hardly any load on the car in 1st and 2nd gear.
-Shawn

Offline watercrawl

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 03:58:34 PM »
Quote
OP, are you running 91 in the car? Is the problem ONLY in 1st and 2nd gear? Being the tune would not make sense to me. It's a possiblity, but there is hardly any load on the car in 1st and 2nd gear.

Mostly 91....sometimes 93.  I have an internal battle using the 93 close to home as it's got ethanol in it. 

To be quite honest, I only know of the problem in first and second because I've never hit 5,000 in 3rd gear. 

Offline kevinmfb

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 04:16:23 PM »
To be quite honest, I only know of the problem in first and second because I've never hit 5,000 in 3rd gear.


Do EET!!!  Eets fun!!  ;)
Anyway, 3rd gear or 4th for a 6spd from around 2200rpm up is where you'll see good load.


I said load  :P

Offline C.J.

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2012, 09:46:08 AM »
never hit 5000 rpm in 3rd gear? 

I wish I had that sort of self control.

Offline scby_snk

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2012, 10:03:49 AM »
never hit 5000 rpm in 3rd gear? 

I wish I had that sort of self control.


I'm with this statement.
WRX Limited on e85 and a loud transmission


jaz Tuning

Offline 99STM

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2012, 06:47:40 PM »
You need to take it to red line in 3rd gear. See if it does the same thing. If it does, I would log the car and see if it is knocking.
-Shawn

Offline TeknoCop

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2012, 07:59:54 PM »
Quote
OP, are you running 91 in the car? Is the problem ONLY in 1st and 2nd gear? Being the tune would not make sense to me. It's a possiblity, but there is hardly any load on the car in 1st and 2nd gear.

Mostly 91....sometimes 93.  I have an internal battle using the 93 close to home as it's got ethanol in it. 

To be quite honest, I only know of the problem in first and second because I've never hit 5,000 in 3rd gear.

Both STi and WRX stock tunes are crap, with the STi being the worse of the 2.  I know you didnt want to here this but your power issue is a tune problem.  I had the same thing on my STi when I had them flash me to an updated SOA tune from the dealer after I got it back in 08.  The faster you can ditch your stock tune, the safer it will be.  I did a lot of research since some of the 08's were problematic.  Ive seen some stock 08+ STi's/WRX's knock from the factory.    I was on a Stg1 tune at 1000 miles, St2 at 2500, and then Protuned at 7500.  If you just run a Stg1 map you will have no problems with the dealer for warranty work as long as u unmarry it which takes 5 sec.   If its a money issue, have someone opensource you for free.  The AP is always easier, but its expensive.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 08:02:32 PM by TeknoCop »

Offline watercrawl

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2012, 07:07:07 AM »
never hit 5000 rpm in 3rd gear? 

I wish I had that sort of self control.


I'm with this statement.

You guys are incorrigible!!  And trying to get me arrested.  :)

Offline watercrawl

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2012, 07:11:17 AM »
If you just run a Stg1 map you will have no problems with the dealer for warranty work as long as u unmarry it which takes 5 sec.   

It is partly a money issue...not necessarily a matter of ability, more a matter of "we have a new baby and shouldn't". 

Anyway!

How true is this?  I'm so freaked out about this issue that I was going to do it and then completely bailed for fear of warranty issue's.  Now you're telling me it won't be an issue.  I'm confused and I'm sure there isn't an absolute answer out there.  I don't know what to do.  :) 

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Offline kevinmfb

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2012, 07:42:55 AM »
Factory tunes are garbage...truth.
Stage 1 will help clear powerband issues...truth.
The only reason the dealership will plug into your ecu is to clear codes...you can do this by unhooking your negative battery terminal.


Weigh out your options monetarily.
The Cobb AP is nice for reflashing your factory tune back on if you're worried about the dealership snooping into your ECU.
Open source is much cheaper but in order to reflash your car you'll need a laptop or netbook and a Tactrix cable.

Offline watercrawl

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2012, 07:34:51 AM »
Alright, it's really driving me nuts now....I just try and look for it now that I know it's there and it's really getting to me.  I'll probably get it tuned in the not too distant future.

First, though, I have some other things I want to do that will cost less. 

Thanks for all the advice/knowledge guys.

Offline adevney

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2012, 09:57:32 PM »
My 2012 wrx felt the same way with the stock tune.  To be honest the car felt somewhat slow to me stock.  Power was clearly dropping off up top.  Now that I have flashed the ECU, the car pulls until redline and the powerband feels MUCH smoother.  I did a datalog before and after the tune and here is the difference. Unfortunately I only logged the AFR's for stage 1 and not the OEM tune, but like others said the OEM tune tends to run pretty lean. This is with the Torqued Performance stage 1 flash btw.


Offline kevinmfb

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2012, 08:10:30 AM »
Alright, it's really driving me nuts now....I just try and look for it now that I know it's there and it's really getting to me.  I'll probably get it tuned in the not too distant future.

First, though, I have some other things I want to do that will cost less. 

Thanks for all the advice/knowledge guys.
Nice chatting with you at the shoot at Millard West. A tune is a good purchase. Smoother power delivery all the way through the RPMs for sure.

Offline watercrawl

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2012, 09:30:01 AM »
Nice chatting with you at the shoot at Millard West. A tune is a good purchase. Smoother power delivery all the way through the RPMs for sure.

You as well!  Thanks for answering some of my questions. 

BTW, being around so many...well, let's call them non-stock WRX's is bad for one's budget.  Just saying.

Offline kevinmfb

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2012, 10:51:22 AM »
Keep in mind that you can mod your car with great gains and not spend a ton of money. Gotta be patient and find some good deals. NASIOC and 3GWRX have great market places if you don't mind a few used parts here and there.

Offline corx

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2012, 07:07:32 AM »
the sad thing is that it is every car. all makes a models. the tunes are crap. the government sucks. electric motors don't have these problems. lol....
 
give me drive by cable any day. mechanical fuel injection is nice too. carburators.... although they have some nice new ones, they are not the most effecient. but nice and responsive.
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Offline MasterForce

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2012, 08:51:39 AM »
the sad thing is that it is every car. all makes a models. the tunes are crap. the government sucks. electric motors don't have these problems. lol....
 
give me drive by cable any day. mechanical fuel injection is nice too. carburators.... although they have some nice new ones, they are not the most effecient. but nice and responsive.

not every car has a crap tune. I can personally tell you that the honda s2000 stock tune is awesome! its so awesome that adding an  i/h/e nets you from -5 hp to 10 hp in rare cases. even with a tune you will probably get 15 hp.  and thats pushing it. the stock tune just maximizes the use of everything! thats why it makes so much power for a 4 cylinder engine! the bad part though is if you wanted power you would have to go s/c or t/c since bolt ons were crap.
-'11 SWP STi Sedan *COBB SF Intake + Box *Invidia Catless DP *Invidia Dual Ti Q300
*SLOWtuned @ 213 AWHP - 93 FT-LB @ 20 PSI

-'11 Kawasaki Lime Green ZX-6R *M4 GP Slip-on

Offline jaz

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Re: Power Dip in 1st & 2nd....why?
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2013, 04:39:51 PM »
the sad thing is that it is every car. all makes a models. the tunes are crap. the government sucks. electric motors don't have these problems. lol....
 
give me drive by cable any day. mechanical fuel injection is nice too. carburators.... although they have some nice new ones, they are not the most effecient. but nice and responsive.

not every car has a crap tune. I can personally tell you that the honda s2000 stock tune is awesome! its so awesome that adding an  i/h/e nets you from -5 hp to 10 hp in rare cases. even with a tune you will probably get 15 hp.  and thats pushing it. the stock tune just maximizes the use of everything! thats why it makes so much power for a 4 cylinder engine! the bad part though is if you wanted power you would have to go s/c or t/c since bolt ons were crap.

Not sure how I found this old thread...  But...  Here's a stock S2000 tune (it blows):



It doesn't gain much with I/H/E because there's not a lot to gain and that without tuning, you continue to have terrible AFR's like seen above.  In addition, 6k VTEC engagement is far from desirable. 

To get an idea of what type of correction it needs just to bring the AFR's in check:

« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 04:42:57 PM by jaz »