Author Topic: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?  (Read 5360 times)

Offline CornOntheCobb

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All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« on: June 04, 2012, 10:18:28 PM »
So I'm hopefully going to get a protune soon and was researching aftermarket intakes for my 2004 STi. I'm going to stay relatively stock with the exception of a catless Invidia v3 dp, Invidia n1 'Street' exhaust and maaaaaybe a GrimmSpeed uppipe. I just read Unabomber's entire Intake FAQ on nasioc which is catered to turbocharged models and it seems that the stock airbox with the OEM paper filter is the safest, most reliable, best filtrated intake that is adequate to power levels in the 400HP range. Here are a few of his quotes I found most interesting:

"I'm not great, I just know how to research. All Intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX. So shorty, cold air, OMFGBBQ intake, or whatever.....all suck butt. By suck butt I mean they skew your A/F ratio, generate +0HP, or decrease the filtration so that your motor injects more dirt, or any combination of the three."

"You'd need engine management and a tune. Any HP gains you got would be a result of the tune, not the intake though. An intake will net you +0HP....a tune alone can net 20ish HP on a 100% stock car."

"08s are no different, without PROOF vs. "seem fine", using an intake is d u m b."

Anyways, I was curious what the thoughts were here because I don't want to spend money on something potentially useless when that money could go to the uppipe. Here's the FAQ if you'd like to read it for yourself: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=477393&highlight=intake+faq

Offline MasterForce

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2012, 10:46:27 PM »
I got the intake just for the BPV sound. But maybe here is something you can do or search. I think if you have 3 charts you should find your answer. Unfortunately its going to be hard.

You will need.

Dyno Chart 1 - Stock Dyno
Dyno Chart 2 - Stock with tune dyno
Dyno Chart 3 - Intake and Tune dyno.

If you find someone who did all that then you can prolly find out how much the intake really nets.

Good place to start is here

http://www.cobbtuning.com/Subaru-AccessPORT-p/ap-sub-002.htm#/v/accessport/maps/subaru/sti/STI-Maps-04-Stock-SF-Intake
-'11 SWP STi Sedan *COBB SF Intake + Box *Invidia Catless DP *Invidia Dual Ti Q300
*SLOWtuned @ 213 AWHP - 93 FT-LB @ 20 PSI

-'11 Kawasaki Lime Green ZX-6R *M4 GP Slip-on

Offline jaz

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2012, 10:51:11 PM »
Rule #1 - Never take anything Unibomber says as fact. The guy is a raging ##### .  A good intake and inlet will allow better spool and hold boost longer so long as the MAF is scaled properly.


EDIT: Really...  You can't say m0r0n on here?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 10:51:21 AM by jaz »

Offline 99STM

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 11:37:31 PM »
Rule #1 - Never take anything Unibomber says as fact. The guy is a raging ##### .
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. He's a #####, or female reproductive organ cleaning utensil.
-Shawn

Offline swfire271

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 06:49:23 AM »
I love my cold air intake....the bpv sound and spooling sound is great!!  Plus, it was already on my car when I purchased it. 
Previous Subarus:
2013 Subaru XV Crosstrek

'04 PSM STi : Modification List

Offline CornOntheCobb

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 08:33:56 AM »
I was looking at picking up a like new Cobb SF Intake that was installed not even a day and includes everything for $115 shipped until I read Unabomber's thread. Is that a good deal? It looks like the intake is highly rated on rallysportdirect.com and I love the fact that it has the straightener grid inside the tube and that it's made of plastic composite material so it has significant heat rejection properties.

The one thing that was in the back of my mind when I was reading Unabomber's FAQ was that I'm getting a protune so wouldn't that fix all issues or concerns with the AF ratio or is that something that would have to be continually monitored? It's hard to imagine that an aftermarket intake can really net +0HP. I guess my question is, with the mods I plan on doing would I see any significant gains by adding the Cobb SF Intake and would those gains be worth $115?

Another thing that I've read is that while very little gains will be seen, aftermarket intakes will decrease spool up time, provide a better throttle response, and make even the stock BPV heard. So if no gains are to be seen maybe I just need to ask myself if $115 is worth all that... if it's true.

Offline onemanzu

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2012, 09:51:50 AM »
Rule #1 - Never take anything Unibomber says as fact. The guy is a raging ##### .
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. He's a #####, or female reproductive organ cleaning utensil.

I read the title and the first paragraph and wondered if this was a spin off of one of the "great" nasioc stickies...


Offline onemanzu

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2012, 09:56:03 AM »
The one thing that was in the back of my mind when I was reading Unabomber's FAQ was that I'm getting a protune so wouldn't that fix all issues or concerns with the AF ratio or is that something that would have to be continually monitored?

It never ever hurts to monitor every aspect of your car. if you plan on doing any sort of modification aside from cat back and intake, it might be advised by some, that you consider some sort of additional monitoring above what gauges are provided stock, though no one says you have to. Your tuner will also likely advise investing in them for reliability and the fact that you can tune better with better feedback.

Again, this is just my $.02 none of it has to be taken seriously.

Offline 99STM

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 02:18:43 PM »
Wideband and boost gauges are an absolute necessity if you plan on doing any modifications, IMO.
-Shawn

Offline Element_punk

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2012, 05:23:09 PM »
every engine needs to breath, the more the demand on the engine the more air is needed so yes intakes are worth it, now I couldn't tell you how much hp you'd gain but in the end your engine will be a lot happier being able to get the required air that it wants. I'll tell you one thing all race car's have a modified intake in some shape or form, now why would they do this if the stock intake was all that was needed.

Offline Bounty Hunter

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 09:15:09 PM »
I've decided against an aftermarket intake for now.  I just went with a K&N panel filter.  I've used them on many of my previous performance cars and I think it helps it breathe a little better.
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Offline cpike

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2012, 01:23:30 PM »
I have the Perrin CAI.  It may not provide a noticeable improvement, but it's there.  I also like the way it changed the sound when I get on the throttle.

I've attached a chart that Perrin has which shows the difference between a Perrin Stage II STi and the same car after installing their aftermarket filter.  There's some performance to be had, and it's likely only after it's been tuned for the intake.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 01:34:01 PM by cpike »

Offline ZETA

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2012, 07:43:17 AM »
wait, what am I looking at?  Peak HP at 3000 RPM on the left?

EDIT: Derp, nevermind.  Torx.

Offline Fossinator

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2012, 11:23:44 PM »
I got the intake just for the BPV sound.


^^^^^This. I remember watching a video on YouTube where some Aussie mechanics tested several different air intake setups on a turbo Skyline. Using a dyno to confirm numbers they found that every setup besides the OEM airbox actually made the car loose HP. Not sure if this is true with every car but it seems without a tune the gains from most bolt ons are only slight at best.
AWDsome

Offline scby_snk

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2012, 01:00:31 PM »
I loved my K&N Typhoon and then I loved my COBB SRI even more...Now i'm on a Big MAF (73mm) KS Tech and I like it more (amazing build quality) ready for my next project..I can say when tuned for a GOOD intake paired with a good inlet, spool increases and you'll hold peak boost a little longer, this is only what I have seen...

...as for that NASIOC guy, I read nothing he posts, He should have been swallowed prior to ever making birth..just saying....or went to a Scion TC  :discomonkey
WRX Limited on e85 and a loud transmission


jaz Tuning

Offline Bogey

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2012, 11:28:32 PM »
Where is my like button^^^^^^!!!!  On the fozzy board they have his threads sticky tied all over.  Didnt like reading most of his stuff on Nabisco, or there.

On topic, I run my stock box with a high flow filter now.  When I had my wrx I really liked my K&N Typhoon.  It made my car sound all that much better.  As far as all of the arguments for or against an intake, it comes down to what do you want?  I use the stocker for low sound purpose only.  Heat soak????  Yeah, our cars hate when its hot out, regardless of where your filter is, or what type you have.  I second that a better flowing intake and turbo inlet with a good tune will only quicken your response.  Why go with a new uppipe?  Dont STI's have a catless UP already?   

Offline scby_snk

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2012, 10:16:10 AM »
STis do have a kitty less up pipe. As for the up pipe swap I will find a thread I have on my computer. For the average person the 06+ WRX and sti up pipes are fine though
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Offline Element_punk

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2012, 03:19:13 AM »
this is simple air = hp need I say more on my Talon same engine as a EVO it gained a massive 7+ hp not allot but it made the car more responsive and helped with the lack of HP in cornering.

Offline CornOntheCobb

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2012, 11:56:08 AM »
I'll tell you one thing all race car's have a modified intake in some shape or form, now why would they do this if the stock intake was all that was needed.
Because they're pushing more than 400 hp and at Stage 3+....? ....if you're even referring to Subarus.

this is simple air = hp need I say more
Probably. You're thinking of the classic N/A standby: the more air you can get into the engine, the more power you'll make. It's an entirely different scenario on FI cars.

on my Talon same engine as a EVO it gained a massive 7+ hp not allot but it made the car more responsive and helped with the lack of HP in cornering.
Was the AFR skewed to see that gain? Our motors design is waaaay different than DSM's as is our ECU anyways. For some reason scaling an aftermarket intake is cumbersome and when scaled correctly can increase EGT.

Quicker spool up, holding peak boost longer, and increased BPV noise are all great in my book... just not sure if it's worth something that doesn't filter as well, possibly brings in warmer air, possibly won't net any hp, the hassle of scaling an aftermarket intake, and the money. That's just me. Obviously everyone is free to do whatever they want to their cars, I won't hate one way or another. I'm just trying to make sense of it all.

Offline scby_snk

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2012, 12:30:09 PM »
1) Personally I kind of hate how people refer to "stages" after stage 2...technically this is all "rule of thumb stuff" but as for stage 3s and on...there are so many options and configurations it's retarded to group this into a set "stage"....sorry more of a rant and not towards anyone lol.

2) As far as NA vs Force feed...Suck, Squish, Bang, Blow...a motor is an air pump. All a turbo or supercharger is doing is pushing air into a set space and changing your effective compression ratio. This is more squish/bang...(helps make up "displacement" on small motors)

3 )How is scaling an aftermarket intake cumbersome? Have you scaled a MAF? Just wondering is all..it's actually fairly simple. Some scale easier than others yes. And yes the DSM does see huge gains with a hacked airbox and a filter...a Subaru defiantly needs scaling...especially if you enlarge the MAF. As for filtering well, That depends on the filter selected...and as for bringing in warm air...also depends on the set up being run.

Just a short .02 on the end of lunch break.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 12:34:15 PM by SuaveCougarBait »
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Offline CornOntheCobb

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2012, 03:04:53 PM »
Agreed on the stages term. It's kind of a marketing thing but I use it just because it's easy to convey an idea of what modifications you have rather than listing them out one by one. Above I was referring to Stage HyperRaceCar.

I've never personally scaled an aftermarket intake, that's your realm. ;D I leave that to you and other tuners. Scaling aside...

IF I were to ever buy an aftermarket intake setup it would be the Cobb SF, Cobb Airbox AND a quality turbo inlet. So that's about $500 + the cost of any tuning. Obviously, not every aftermarket intake setup is that expensive (sure, you could just get a Cobb SF and be done with it) but to see the most of any benefits, while trying to keep the "hot ram" temps down that's the way I personally, would go about it. And frankly, that's not worth it. Of course there are a lot of variables and I'm very picky but the cost v. gain has to be worth it to me as well.

Offline CornOntheCobb

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2012, 03:11:30 PM »
The STi and 06+ WRX uppipe may not have a cat but there's some room for improvement. Is that improvement enough to justify replacing it? Depends on your plans for the car, available funds, time (if you're going to install it yourself), and of course - patience. But like Suave said, the stock STi and 06+ WRX uppipe is just fine for most people. Here's a great thread (with pics) on the stock STi uppipe:
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-exhaust/101214-stock-up-pipe-more-serious-look.html

Offline scby_snk

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2012, 03:30:32 PM »
Also for MAF scaling, the stock one is pretty off. ;)
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Offline Element_punk

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2012, 02:24:32 PM »
Because they're pushing more than 400 hp and at Stage 3+....? ....if you're even referring to Subarus.

I was, why would they bother if WRX Intakes where all they needed?

Probably. You're thinking of the classic N/A standby: the more air you can get into the engine, the more power you'll make. It's an entirely different scenario on FI cars.

kinda, but really if you improve the air flow on any car you combustion will be better.

Was the AFR skewed to see that gain? Our motors design is waaaay different than DSM's as is our ECU anyways. For some reason scaling an aftermarket intake is cumbersome and when scaled correctly can increase EGT.

why I agree that DSM's are different then are cars, in some ways they are the same they like more air brought in the cooler the air in the combustion the better the burn rate thus making better power and being more fuel efficient, the problem I see is where you got the info that it came from "Nabisco" probable the worst place to get advise.

Offline jaz

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Re: All intakes suck butt, especially so for the WRX?
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2012, 02:46:10 PM »
I'll tell you one thing all race car's have a modified intake in some shape or form, now why would they do this if the stock intake was all that was needed.
Because they're pushing more than 400 hp and at Stage 3+....? ....if you're even referring to Subarus.

this is simple air = hp need I say more
Probably. You're thinking of the classic N/A standby: the more air you can get into the engine, the more power you'll make. It's an entirely different scenario on FI cars.

on my Talon same engine as a EVO it gained a massive 7+ hp not allot but it made the car more responsive and helped with the lack of HP in cornering.
Was the AFR skewed to see that gain? Our motors design is waaaay different than DSM's as is our ECU anyways. For some reason scaling an aftermarket intake is cumbersome and when scaled correctly can increase EGT.

Scaling the MAF is very easy.  I have also found that the stock MAF needs scaled and the temperature compensations are off, to say the least.  In addition, if you ever plan to change injectors, scale the MAF (stock or aftermarket) with the stock injectors, then swap in the new injectors and scale the injectors around the proven MAF scale.  Doing it the other way around doesn't work quite as well.

Agreed on the stages term. It's kind of a marketing thing but I use it just because it's easy to convey an idea of what modifications you have rather than listing them out one by one. Above I was referring to Stage HyperRaceCar.

I've never personally scaled an aftermarket intake, that's your realm. ;D I leave that to you and other tuners. Scaling aside...

IF I were to ever buy an aftermarket intake setup it would be the Cobb SF, Cobb Airbox AND a quality turbo inlet. So that's about $500 + the cost of any tuning. Obviously, not every aftermarket intake setup is that expensive (sure, you could just get a Cobb SF and be done with it) but to see the most of any benefits, while trying to keep the "hot ram" temps down that's the way I personally, would go about it. And frankly, that's not worth it. Of course there are a lot of variables and I'm very picky but the cost v. gain has to be worth it to me as well.

I'll acknowledge stages up to stage 2...  However, I see a car as "Stage 2" all the way up to TBE, inake, uppipe, and other 'minor' bolt-ons.  Start changing injectors, turbos, fuel type, etc, then it's just modding. 

The Cobb inake and box is not worth it.  It's big, adds lots of additional parts to remove when working on the car, and really isn't better than the stock box.  A $250 KStech CAI is a MUCH better intake...  I just bought one today.