Author Topic: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.  (Read 4300 times)

Offline mistahcat

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Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« on: June 18, 2013, 12:34:06 PM »
Hey guys, I'm going to be tuning through Russ Garage and Pooh Tuning, so I figured I would chronicle the experience here. Pooh Tuning located in Cincinnati, OH has offered to do them remotely through Russ Garage. There seems to be a very healthy curiosity about the nature of these tunes, so I hope this thread can help some in making the decision. I will avoid posting opinions and keep it to objective observations and data.

Car as it is:
2011 STi sedan, stock other than tune, 25000 miles on odometer
Stage 1 93 octane tune by Tank in June 2011 via tactrix cable and ROM raider, no knock logged 1 month or 1 year after
Fall 2012 - code thrown (iirc p0172 - bank 1 too rich), code returned 2-3x after resetting, did not return after cleaning MAF sensor
No other mechanical issues, oil changed every 3000-3500 miles

To come:
Tune: Stage 2 93 octane (with 10% ethanol), max boost ~19psi with high RPM tapering
Downpipe: Agency Power catless bell mouth 3''
Wideband used: Innovate LC-1 digital
Programs/cable: Romraider, ECUflash, learning view, Tactrix 2.0

Result
Will likely post the data here once it gets sorted through. Bottom line up front it runs without knock after the final revision in all RPM ranges at all loads (0 knock correction other than shift knock), boost staying under 20psi with spiking or creeping, AFRs ideal range in open and close loop. Second to last revision showed some knock in 4th gear a few thousand rpm into the pull which was corrected in entirety in final revision and has not returned. No hesitation, stumbling, or loss of power.

Less objective measures: Turbo feels like it is spooling significantly faster (note: catless downpipe was installed), and significantly more low end power particularly in second gear, pulls harder through all gears. No mechanical issues to report. Will relog this thursday (6/27) so if anyone has questions or requests for parameters they'd like to see please message me on here. I will also be at the J-Bird's wednesday night for anyone who wants to check it out.

Process: FYI This is more subjective information for those who wish to stick to the objective items.
Russ answered all of my questions completely, adjusting for my level of understanding. He thoroughly explained what had been changed and why, how to identify any future problems, and how to record and read my logs. He was in close contact with Pooh Tuning through the whole process. Pooh Tuning was very responsive to my specific needs and requests for a skew toward safety over pushing my car's limits.

Disclosures: The tune is being provided without charge by both companies for the purpose of providing measures of quality and safety. Mistahcat is not otherwise employed or receiving secondary gain from either company and is not really a cat but a person. No Subarus will be harmed during the making of this project.

Feel free to post requests for logs here. State the type of log and parameters to be measured.

Obligatory picture time:
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 07:33:41 PM by mistahcat »
2011 STi in LR, Dom 3.0

Offline Arani Rey

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2013, 10:32:49 PM »
 I'm sure you know this from talking to  Russ,  but just in case...  make sure you replace those fouled up plugs and consider replacing the  primary o2 sensor.

Offline mistahcat

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2013, 11:22:32 PM »
I'm sure you know this from talking to  Russ,  but just in case...  make sure you replace those fouled up plugs and consider replacing the  primary o2 sensor.

Thanks for the headsup! We've only just starting the planning so any advice is appreciated. I will check out the spark plugs and start shopping for a new O2 sensor if mine is nastied up.
2011 STi in LR, Dom 3.0

Offline kevinmfb

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 11:32:24 AM »
New plugs will make a difference but prepare for some tedious removal/installation of the plugs. There's a lot of stuff to take off of the newer ones just to get to them.
It's worth it though.
Happy tuning, man!
Look forward to future posts.

Offline mistahcat

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 12:23:15 PM »
New plugs will make a difference but prepare for some tedious removal/installation of the plugs. There's a lot of stuff to take off of the newer ones just to get to them.
It's worth it though.
Happy tuning, man!
Look forward to future posts.

yeah, I just read through a few walkthroughs and watched a youtube video for our years, and that intake box is just enough of a hassle. I've removed it once before :| Luckily I'm on break for a little while and have all day.
2011 STi in LR, Dom 3.0

Offline poohbear

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 07:40:09 AM »
Why should he consider changing his primary o2? I rarley see these fail, and nothing indicates that he should need one. The only times I have seen them are on much older subarus or with higher EGT's.

If you're considering build of from before, im sure its not a problem any longer considering how long the car has been driven after the maf cleaning.

As for the plugs don't be intimidated. Once you have accomplished it once its no big deal. You should be able to access your drivers side by removeing the battery; and if you loosen the clamps for the air pump, you should be able to pop off the "tubing" for it pretty quickly and easily. Just kind of let it hang off to the side out of the way. The passanger side is easy enough. Swapping out plugs shouldnt take any longer than 30 minutes to an hour, or up to two hours for a shade tree mechanic.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 07:41:52 AM by poohbear »

Offline Arani Rey

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2013, 09:43:13 AM »
Why should he consider changing his primary o2? I rarley see these fail, and nothing indicates that he should need one. The only times I have seen them are on much older subarus or with higher EGT's.


I thought that long term exposure to rich conditions contaminated the sensor tip causing skewed readings?

Offline poohbear

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2013, 09:47:12 AM »
Why should he consider changing his primary o2? I rarley see these fail, and nothing indicates that he should need one. The only times I have seen them are on much older subarus or with higher EGT's.


I thought that long term exposure to rich conditions contaminated the sensor tip causing skewed readings?

I'm sure he will be fine. I wouldnt want to make the call to buy a 200 dollar sensor without first compairing the readings to a wideband

Offline mistahcat

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2013, 12:04:52 PM »
Changed the plugs. Mildly fouled at 25,000 miles. I'm glad I got to do that, it was a lot of fun, but getting in was definitely the hardest part. Thanks for the headsup on that Kevin, if you're reading this. I think the Japanese engineers laughed when they put the bolts so close to the metal. I have scrapes all up and down my arms from just barely being able to get at them in the narrow spaces through the clutter.

It felt like this was behind me the whole time I struggled.
2011 STi in LR, Dom 3.0

Offline kevinmfb

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2013, 07:09:51 PM »
TOO FUNNY!!
Yeah, my hands were sliced up a bit.
Jason came out unscathed somehow (experience I guess) ;)

Offline mistahcat

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 07:32:39 PM »
bump: tune is done, will recheck logs this thursday to be sure. details without data are up in the original post. data will likely be posted here once we log the rest of it this week.

In a nutshell: Very very happy. Car feels much more responsive particularly lower RPM ranges. Had a great ride home! Also nice to know no knock after thorough logging and good AFRs.
2011 STi in LR, Dom 3.0

Offline poohbear

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2013, 04:05:38 AM »
bump: tune is done, will recheck logs this thursday to be sure. details without data are up in the original post. data will likely be posted here once we log the rest of it this week.

In a nutshell: Very very happy. Car feels much more responsive particularly lower RPM ranges. Had a great ride home! Also nice to know no knock after thorough logging and good AFRs.

You're actually a little on the rich side. Though you're running 93 you're running E-10. E-10's stoichiometry is lower than a fuel without ethenol. I wanted to run you higher but the car didnt like that.

Your throttle managment in the low to medium range is untouched. I didnt want nay sayers talking that the throttle response is just from ramping.

Log as much as you want and watch for the knock. We found the threshold of the car and backed it off a little. This was to make room for heat soak or other conditions and give a little bit of a sfaety net.

You are begining to run out of fuel. IDC's were running in the high 80's low 90's. If you want to add more power injectors a and a pump are in your future.

In addition you will probably benefit from an intake. You're not bottoming your current intake out. However in my experiance after about 4.6 or so volts the intakes tend to choke a little. You're running in the 4.5-4.6 at most. In colder temps or higher pressure you will most likely see higher.

Offline jaz

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2013, 09:28:20 AM »
Your throttle managment in the low to medium range is untouched. I didnt want nay sayers talking that the throttle response is just from ramping.
:unsure:

Log as much as you want and watch for the knock. We found the threshold of the car and backed it off a little. This was to make room for heat soak or other conditions and give a little bit of a sfaety net.

Are you not making use of the IAT and ECT timing tables to account for these conditions?

You are begining to run out of fuel. IDC's were running in the high 80's low 90's. If you want to add more power injectors a and a pump are in your future.
 

I do agree that if more power via a larger snail is going to require more fueling upgrades, high 80's/low 90's is on the low side of a stage 2 STi.  For a street car and daily driver, I wouldn't be bothered to run them right up to 100% (which isn't a true 100% for injector capability on these cars as you can go well over).

Offline mistahcat

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2013, 11:36:50 AM »
Russ mentioned the richness and I was happy to see it. little rich>>lean, right? Regarding IDC, the logs from my original tune were frequently touching in the 100% range, and I realize that's not always real world maxing, but it makes me feel better seeing it in the 80s. Slower if safer is my mantra, so any major mods will be preceded by a walbro and some 850s (except for sticker mods of course. those just add raw hp directly to the wheels!). Speaking of injectors, is there ever a problem with going too big? Been reading contradicting info out there.
2011 STi in LR, Dom 3.0

Offline jaz

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2013, 11:51:26 AM »
Russ mentioned the richness and I was happy to see it. little rich>>lean, right? Regarding IDC, the logs from my original tune were frequently touching in the 100% range, and I realize that's not always real world maxing, but it makes me feel better seeing it in the 80s. Slower if safer is my mantra,

100% IDC on a stage 1 tune is a Tank specialty.  I still have carbon spots on my driveway from some of his previous customers. 


so any major mods will be preceded by a walbro and some 850s (except for sticker mods of course. those just add raw hp directly to the wheels!). Speaking of injectors, is there ever a problem with going too big? Been reading contradicting info out there.

Since you're already top feed, you'd be best served with some ID1000's.  Years ago (pre 2005), large injectors (especially high impedance) were hard to control during low pulse widths.  These days, if you get a GOOD INJECTOR, you can actually run a large size without sacrificing idle/cruise.  One of the issues you run into on the Subaru is the minimum pulse with the ECU is capped which would be added on top of the latency.  With Cobb, you can lower the minimum commanded pulse width, however, I was able to make CJ's ID2000's idle smoothly with no change between AC on or off without lowering the minimum IDC via RomRaider. 

With that said, unless you know you'll be going much larger, it is still good practice to size an injector for your needs.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 12:21:17 PM by jaz »

Offline poohbear

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2013, 03:56:43 PM »
Russ mentioned the richness and I was happy to see it. little rich>>lean, right? Regarding IDC, the logs from my original tune were frequently touching in the 100% range, and I realize that's not always real world maxing, but it makes me feel better seeing it in the 80s. Slower if safer is my mantra, so any major mods will be preceded by a walbro and some 850s (except for sticker mods of course. those just add raw hp directly to the wheels!). Speaking of injectors, is there ever a problem with going too big? Been reading contradicting info out there.

You're leaner than you would be on say a cobb OTS map or stage 1. However you didnt tune out to be as lean as I would have liked. I was expecting 11's even with the E-10. However until someone actually dips the gas and confirms its only e-10, after seeing how the car acted I'm assuming its more like E-15 lol.
You run a solid 10.7-10.8 to 10.9-11... I wanted to see 11.1 ###. It's ok though, its not horrible, just a little fat in the top end. Some meth can fix that for you ;)... Or e-85. 

If your IDC's at stage 1 where bouncing over 100% then you had issues lol. From what I understand the previous tuner was probably all "man look this tune is so super awsomes i ran your injectors out of fuel!" When in fact it was just fat.

Yes the IDC is a relative number based on the time you can inject fuel, or the car can "except" fuel. I have run cars well into 115% or more without any leaning out. Then again I have sen cars run 90's and just go lean hard after 5k revs.

From the logs the car should still feel like a rocket compared to what it was before.

As for injectors ID1000's are great or another company that makes 910's that are the ID 1000's lol. If you go too large you lose resolution with the latency and have bouncing idles and such. Most well matched injectors up to 1000 will run great without any difference. I have done several daily ID1000 cars and they all ride they were OEM (well not oem since OEM stinks but you get my point)

With that said you can NEVER had too much over head in fuel. Only plan on an 18g. Go 1000's... You never now down the road what you may decide to do. Why buy it twice?

If you don't have time to do it correct the first time then you don't have time to do it wrong twice.

Offline mistahcat

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2013, 07:12:04 PM »
From the logs the car should still feel like a rocket compared to what it was before.

This.

I'm too happy with the change now to think about next. Haha, victim of its own success. When the novelty wears off I'm pretty sure I'll add on the little things and save the biggest for after my warranty is done. Good to know I don't have to wait until I have a 2nd DD to get 1000s. I probably won't venture too far from EBCS, CBE, suspension mods for a while, though the fuel delivery is now in my more immediate crosshairs.
2011 STi in LR, Dom 3.0

Offline 99STM

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2013, 07:50:32 PM »
Why should he consider changing his primary o2? I rarley see these fail, and nothing indicates that he should need one. The only times I have seen them are on much older subarus or with higher EGT's.


I thought that long term exposure to rich conditions contaminated the sensor tip causing skewed readings?

I'm sure he will be fine. I wouldnt want to make the call to buy a 200 dollar sensor without first compairing the readings to a wideband
Lol. You're quite the poor excuse for a tuner.
-Shawn

Offline bspec

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2013, 01:10:37 PM »
Guys, negative comments are fine. Opinions are fine. But please keep it constructive. I'm looking for a little more than name calling and a multi-quite.

Our members have no problems writing very long winded posts when they have positive experiences to share explaining in extreme detail why they feel that way. Without some additional details or reasoning why you feel that way, these negative comments just boil down to name calling and bullying, and that's not cool.

Going forward, if I see posts that amount to bullying, I'm going to give the poster the opportunity to add additional details explaining their opinion. If that opportunity is not taken, I'll remove the post.
the bottom line is this, people just need to realize that when they buy cheap CO's [KW on down], they are buying cheap, poorly engineered shocks for the sake of having height adjust-ability. - whitetiger on legacygt.com

Offline jton

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2013, 11:47:22 PM »
Updates?
-Jimmy
R35 GTR

Offline mistahcat

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2013, 09:22:02 PM »
Will update after I get back from my buddy's wedding. Threw a couple codes. AFRs are now pretty far above target getting as high as 11.9 iirc (. Flkc values in 3 range still getting fbkc. Over boosting. AFR learned corrections over 10. My MAF is not scaled as in not touched. This is off the top of my head, there is more. I will post the numbers later next week. I have just been very swamped lately. 0500-1900 days nonstop and weekends and now a friend's wedding out of state.

I encourage everyone to take this and make an informed decision. I will say the car is more powerful than it was as a stage 1. I have not broken any parts. It runs but has some stutter and hesitation. Russ did an excellent job with my parts installing the aemuego and my downpipe. He was also very dedicated to providing thorough and constant support. He teaches as he works if you want to stick around which made for a very fun and enlightening 2 week break from clinicals.

I will likely be getting a Cobb stage 2 map soon due to the lean AFR I have seen and the fairly heavy knock in my top end. The knock was not apparent in first week of tune. After that I saw a little more a bit later. Then just yesterday saw the amount that caused me some concern. I have also not had any adjustments to the tune since it was first finalized.

I hope this helps some guys. Good and bad in there, make of it what you will. Please no mud slinging. I don't want it to obscure anyone's vision and impact good decision making. Numbers to follow ASAP.
2011 STi in LR, Dom 3.0

Offline julozas

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2013, 06:17:05 AM »
Interesting...are you going to have pooh adjust your tune.?? Or just go to cobb's stg.2 map?
Lincoln Meet

05 sti, lots o' mods.!

Offline bspec

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2013, 07:13:58 AM »
Can you clarify? You believe the car was running right the first week and then developed knock/lean week two? If so, that suggests a mechanical issue. If the tune was not correct from the beginning, it is surprising that you were sent on your way with an unfinished tune.
the bottom line is this, people just need to realize that when they buy cheap CO's [KW on down], they are buying cheap, poorly engineered shocks for the sake of having height adjust-ability. - whitetiger on legacygt.com

Offline joeleodee

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2013, 09:31:29 AM »
^ This is possible.  As well, he said maf scaling was off.  That won't always be readily evident shortly after a flash.  It's possible that this is causing the lean AFRs which can result in knocking.

Offline jton

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Re: Pooh Tuning Tune... tuner.
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2013, 12:19:08 PM »
I've seen the logs from this tune. It doesn't look like the tuner knew what he was doing.

Will you be sharing the logs, mistachat?
-Jimmy
R35 GTR